Social Justice Can Be a Clout Game: Here's How to Avoid It (Leftist Analysis)

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Social Justice Can Be a Clout Game. Social Justice discourse has become more popular than ever and even though Social Justice language has done a lot to center the struggles of marginal communities, It has also been exploited by those who operate cynically in the attention economy. Join Angie Speaks as she discusses these pernicious Social Justice dynamics and warns about the possible implications for the Left.

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48 comments

  1. Angie Speaks 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    If you like my content and want to support the channel so I can continue producing good quality videos then consider supporting me on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/angiespeaks.
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  2. Nothing To see here 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster.
    Seems like throughout history it always fails when Left starts playing game of the Right.
    Left cannot win their game. You cannot beat competitive system with system based on cooperation. It is in the name itself "competitive". It is based around it. It excels at it.
    Seems like only way to not loose, is to not play.
    That system NEEDS opposition to work. When it lacks opposition. It turns on itself and collapses.
    Considering how people usually learn by mistakes. How humans need to feel the misery to really change.
    I am starting to see a cruel joke in all this.

  3. FumettosaMente 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    "These platforms are not ours" – yes. beautifully said. even private discord groups that you feel effectively like your own couch space are actually under the legislation of Californian laws. one should be aware of where and how their conversation is taking place.
    Edit: you make so many excellent points on victimization as currency, on both right and left sides, and on the condemnation of empowerment as a non profitable revenue. I am so ever grateful for your voice.

  4. That One Internet Girl 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    I completely agree with this. I’ve always thought that even if someone is spewing complete bull, there still is a grain of truth in it somewhere. Like the right saying ‘Fake News!’ all the time. Obviously they have the wrong angle, but the hot take that the news media is biased and designed to subtly coerce you into believing what the specific people want you to think isn’t actually on its own a bad take. When you take that idea and start making conspiracy theories to move away from having to criticize capitalism is where they fall down, but the initial idea isn’t flawed.
    The same thing can be said about right-wing criticism of the Me Too movement. Lots of it was based in sexism and misogyny, but some of it was from legit concerns that people would abuse the movement for personal gain, which has probably to a small, but still likely real, degree happened.

    Tl;dr: Right wings come to the wrong conclusions, but that doesn’t mean all their logic is terrible and that they don’t have at least some of the facts. Lots of attacks on the left are in bad faith, but some come from legitimate concerns that can be useful to hear. (Again, they’re wrong, but it’s always good to continue to improve and take criticism, sometimes even when that criticism sounds stupid on the surface)

  5. Kari Ziebarth 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    "Identity should never be used as a means to assert and accumulate power. Identity should never ever be used as a shield from criticism. And most importantly, identity should never be seen as a merit in and of itself." I would like to put this on a T-shirt.

  6. Renée Lucero 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    It has happened to me a lot that when I criticized someone on twitter, they would use their identity as a shield from it, saying that no one asked for my opinion because that's not my identity, or claiming I only thought that because I don't belong to X thing instead of explaining to me why they thought different than I did. Even me asking a genuine question to try to understand would end in them calling me an idiot and then saying I was tone-policing for telling them to calm down. I was really trying to listen and understand POC and people who didn't have the same privileges as I do, but it became so overwhelming for me to always have to walk on eggshells and agree with everything people said even if I thought what they were saying was wrong, because if I didn't I would be shouted down. I was always questioning myself and my own judgement (Which caused my anxiety to trigger horribly). I never wanted to say anything because I knew I would get shouted down and called a million things, but now that I know I'm not the only one on the left who sees this it's like a breath of fresh air. It also doesn't help that we can't even discuss this because right-wingers have weaponized such arguments against social justice, and so if you say anything that criticizes aspects of "Identity politics" then everyone sees you as a right-winger in disguise who's arguing in bad faith.

  7. Micah Keiser 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    I’ve definitely seen this commodification of victimization hurt people directly… people often feel like they need to be in suffering in order for their personal experiences to be valid. It makes it harder to love yourself as a marginalized person when you feel that the political movement fighting for your rights needs you to be suffering to be worth hearing. The truth is, your overall happiness doesn’t make whatever experience you bring to the conversation less important.

  8. Suadela 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    Haven’t really seen any of your videos before, but you’re on Low Society and I got curious. I think you did a good job in addressing these concerns. I’m subscribed now and look forward to more videos from you.

  9. Saucetacular 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    Im new to your channel, i really like it and think your really pretty. But how you gone compare Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson? Clearly Jordan Peterson is alot smarter. Jordan Peterson grade a or b and Ben Shapiro grade d or c yam sayin

  10. Finnish Bookchinist 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    Angie. You're what the online left needs really bad. How you incorporate psychological analysis is what is missing from the left in general.

  11. Josh Martinez 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    I just came here from the Shara Z video and I'm glad i did because this was great, guess what …… you got a new subscriber

  12. the libra queen 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    people should trust their intuition when it seems like someone is playing clout games in the name of social justice. it's really fucking obvious tbh and it's gross.

  13. Flobbled 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    What is funny to me is that "clout" sounds like the german word for stealing, in this case attention.

  14. aturtlethatisred 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    Isn’t that just survival in capitalism? Commodifiying yourself. I respect your work. As an aspiring content creator for people chronic illness, I feel like a fool for even trying to make a change. I want to avoid pitfalls of the system, but I also want to eat and I am an entertainer, so I guess I am going to try to make change anyway and do my best to not be explotative. I couldn’t finish, it was too disheartinging. I will circle back later. Thank you for your work. Really like the podcast.

  15. Peter McLoughlin 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    minor issue. Unfortunately most of the appliances and affordances we use are products of Capitalism asking anticapitalists not to make use of them while fighting the system might be counterproductive. Asking people not to make uses of tools around us because they are made by capitalism is asking us to fight with one hand tied behind our back. Minor bone to pick.

  16. Peter McLoughlin 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    movements even positive ones are run by Homo Sapiens and they are prone to making mistakes and even at times attracting opportunistic people. Because a good movement can attract fallible even bad people doesn't necessarily discredit that movement but it complicates things which is the way of the world.

  17. Trevor Prime 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

  18. Firefairy1212 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    I think you're spot-on about the issues with the Me Too movement, but lbr, everything you said about it applies to Andi Dier as well. She was using Rose McGowan's discussion of her own sexual assault to clout chase and re-frame herself as the victim in the situation, when the situation had nothing to do with her. "How DARE you speak candidly about your own trauma in a public space when bad things are happening to people like me??" -Andi Dier

  19. Karoline 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    I feel like your videos are a little out of my depth, but at the intellectual level I aspire to. I came here at Essena ONeill's suggestion in her recent interview and I'm so thankful that I found you <3 . Any books or other resources that you recommend to understand the issues you discuss better?

  20. Evelien Heerens 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    I hate how I am inclined to call making this video incredibly brave.

    It should not be brave to analyze a system.

    It should not be brave to consider criticism made in good faith.

    It should not be brave to share your insight and invite people to consider it.

    Attention is currency in the marketplace of ideas. The currency is not gained by the subject of the attention, it is gained by the agent referring to the subject. The subject then becomes exploited for capital gain. You do not own your identity in this market. You do not own the things people say about you. So if you become the subject of a vitriolic discourse, you are not just alienated from your the products of your labor, you are indeed alienated from your very identity.

    Capitalism is a shit-show. Hassan Minaj joked that everything is secretly terrible when you look into it. He was right. This is because we don't see the system, we see it's narrative. Marketing doesn't just tell you a product is good. Marketing tells you that the world means well, that people are good, justice exists and that all is as it should be. It tells us that we have it better then we could reasonably expect and that bad things mostly happen to people who deserve it.

    Recycling is a for profit business system that pollutes as much as it saves. Charity is used to make rich people richer more then it helps poor people. We have more empty houses then homeless people and produce food for 10 billion people while 3.5 out of 7 billion people do not have access to as much food as they need. Healthcare isn't there to heal people, it is there to profit off of them. As a patient you are not the client, you are the product.

    The world is a machine that crushes the weak to elevate the privileged and allow them to exploit everyone else. We just get told it's good somehow. And we more often then not believe it.

    Illusions are pretty, they make us happy. Reality is ugly, it makes us depressed. Waking up is hard.

  21. Patricia Pandacoon 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    It was this autocannibalism in leftist spaces that initially drove me into the anti-SJW crowd several years ago. I wanted to understand oppression and wanted to be corrected when I said ignorant things but the sheer hostility was frightening. I've come back into the fold (and actually gone further left) since then but I still saw the way that people who stepped out of line were treated as abhorrent and I'm incredibly grateful for people like you speaking out about this in a coherent way better than I ever could.

  22. Sophie McCarrell 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    The call out on the liberals using social justice for capital is good poigniant right now… Welcome to the 2019 Canadian Election! Where debates are a mess and the most calm rational who doesn't shout over everyone, is considered a "wasted vote".

  23. Sophie McCarrell 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    So freaking well spoken and such concise messages. Thanks you for this. I do gotta say, although your editing is good and far better than I could ever do, it could be better. I'd sometimes zone out, then have to rewind, because what you were talking about was actually super interesting. My modern day brain has a difficult time staying focused on on person talking for so long without smoother cuts and transitions =P

  24. Jay IU 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    I was THIS CLOSE to say that you should have a lot more followers and views and I was going to compare you with "the other leftubers" and then I realized how capitalistic that was… Still, more people should watch this video, your content is amazing!

  25. Yarrow M 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    I definitely saw this with the recent backlash against Natalie Wynn. Though some of the reaction's reasons were legitimate, most of it was absolutely disproportionate, and based on misrepresentation. It was an opportunity for chest-beating declarations of how radical and socially conscious people were. It was a social justice moment that was cynically exploited without any thought given to what was actually helpful.

    People were repeating the same claims with only a few wildly misconstrued out-of-context tweets for proof (though all they usually had was hearsay). Most never even watched a Contrapoints vid.
    When I tried to verify these claims that Natalie is a TERF, a truscum, a racist, is against nonbinary people, etc., I have often been met with anger—"why don't you just believe us? If you don't take our word at face value, don't pretend like you care about our victimization."

    When I tried to get to the bottom of the claims, I became just another racist yt truscum.
    When I asked for specific examples of Natalie's supposed bigotry, I was told that I was "demanding labor of POC" and I should "do the work" myself.
    When I did the work myself and found no examples, I was told that I was "going to bat for a racist".

  26. April Shadows 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    No God's, no masters

    Kill you heros. (Metaphorically)

    Angie's video is brilliant, but she is our fellow human being.

  27. MadeaSubstitute 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    I am here late, but better late then never, I s'pose!

    One thing I've noticed with "Call out culture" and…the general mentality that we (collectively) have right now is the belief that things don't change unless they're forced to. The idea that people who are in the wrong are just always in the wrong, and victims are always going to be victims, and things are always x, y, and z and we need to "rise up" and "revolt" against the "straight white men" (it's always "straight white men" or "cishet men" or "cishets", at least if you're on tumblr, and, if you try to say otherwise, the people I've seen arguing this the hardest will then claim you're a straight white man and just trying to "pretend" to be a minority, which is…yikes.)
    And, um, yeah…I have issues with that?
    While it's true that people who don't experience resistance likely won't change (a ball rolling in a void will never stop rolling, you feel?), we're in a place where resistance is easy and fast to demonstrate. And it's very, VERY easy to nip something in the bud before it gets to a horrific point if we, y'know, work together and stop trying to fight each other over some petty shit and a competition to be the most "woke".
    This mentality that nothing ever changes nor ever will is extremely toxic and damaging to basically everyone subjected to it, and I have no idea where it came from.

    This was kind of my own tangent, and I wanted to comment on something in the actual video, but all of the points were covered really well, and I don't really know what else to add, so, um…

  28. Luxus Carnage 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    "We are all encouraged to behave in profitable ways" reminds me of the Satanic Panic in the 80s/90s (movies/TV) and the resurgence of McCarthyism (social media $). If you can create victims you can create a profit.

  29. wextia 27 June, 2020 at 22:39 Reply

    Amazing video, Angie. You are way ahead of the current leftist discourse. You have presented me with a lot of uncomfortable realisations. Your work and your ideas are amazing.

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